Episode 113 : The 5 Losing Strategies of Relationship Reality - Terry Real

Terry Real is a nationally recognized family therapist, author, and teacher. He is particularly known for his groundbreaking work on men and male psychology as well as his work on gender and couples; he has been in private practice for over thirty years. Terry has appeared often as the relationship expert for Good Morning America and ABC News. His work has been featured in numerous academic articles as well as media venues such as Oprah, 20/20, The Today Show, CNN, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Psychology Today and many others.

In 1997 he published the national bestseller: I Don't Want To Talk About It, the first book ever written on the topic of male depression. That was followed by How Can I Get Through To You? an exploration of the role of patriarchy in relationships and most recently, The New Rules of Marriage: What You Need to Know to Make Love Work, a practical guide for couples and couples therapists.

Terry founded The Relational Life Institute, in Arlington, Massachusetts, dedicated to working with the general population to help women reclaim their voices and men open their hearts. The Institute offers a training program for therapists as well as workshops and trainings throughout the US and Canada.

Audio Title: Ep113 - Terry Real
Audio Duration: 01:03:43
Number of Speakers: 2

[00:00:00] Intro: Heroes of Reality Podcast, a podcast about the game of life and the hero's journey we all experience. Let's jump in with our host Dylan Watkins as he introduces today's guest.

[00:00:14] Dylan Watkins: Welcome young adventurers and on today's show, I have Terry Real. He is a nationally recognized family therapist, author and teacher. He's particularly known for his groundbreaking work on men and male psychology, as well as his work on gender and couples. He has been in private practice for over 30 years.

Terry founded the Relational Life Institute in Arlington, Massachusetts, dedicated to working with the general population to help women reclaim their voices and men open their hearts. The institute offers training programs for therapists as well as workshop and trainings throughout US and Canada. Terry has appeared often on the relationship expert for Good Morning America, ABC News, Oprah’s 2020, the Today show, CNN, New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Psychology Today and many others. Without any delay, I would like to welcome Terry.

[00:01:01] Terry Real: Hey, how you doing, man? It's great to be here.

[00:01:04] Dylan Watkins: It’s great to be here, brother. Thank you so much. I appreciate you being on the show and I appreciate all the work that you do.

[00:01:09] Terry Real: Well, thank you. Thank you. It has been a journey. I got to tell you I've been at this for a while.

[00:01:14] Dylan Watkins: That's great. I would love to first get started. Please let me know just a, a little bit of your journey. Speaking of which, how did you get from the very beginning, all the way up to all of the good work you've done, helping the men and women across the land.

[00:01:26] Terry Real: Well, you know, Dylan, I like to say I started off as a family therapist at about four in my dysfunctional family.

My first book, I don't want to talk about it, published back in the ‘90s. It was the first book ever written about male depression and there's a large chunk of that book that's autobiographical. I talked about my own depression. I was raised by a depressed, angry father. He was raised by a depressed angry father.

I got to tell you, I have two boys now in their 30s, one an entrepreneur, the other in med school and neither of those boys is going to say that. I got to tell you that is just about the best thing I've done in my life so far. I call it breaking the chain. Hey, can I tell you my most quoted – I've written four books now.

Can I tell you the one quote that’s cited more than any others?

[00:02:29] Dylan Watkins: Go for it.

[00:02:32] Terry Real: Family pathology rolls from generation to generation like a fire in the woods, taking down everything in its path until one person in one generation has the courage to turn and face the flames. That person brings peace to his ancestors and spares the children that follow. That's my work and that's the work that I want to bring into the world. Breaking the legacy.

[00:03:06] Dylan Watkins: That's so powerful. I mean one of those things that like – in our era, because of just how we've grown up, men primarily get two emotions. They get angry and they get good, right? I'm angry. Good. That's about the, the spectrum of male-tolerated emotions, even though that women say that they want and the other things. It's not always accepted.

[00:03:27] Terry Real: Don't forget lust.

[00:03:30] Dylan Watkins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. You're right. There's the trifecta – good, angry and ugh. You know, so that makes a lot of sense. So that sounds incredibly powerful. So can you talk to me just a little bit about what causes this generational pathology that happens with angry, depressed men and kind of how you've worked to open up men's hearts?

[00:03:54] Terry Real: Well, first of all, it is a good time to be opening up men's hearts because women are asking for it and our children are asking for it. You know, the essence of traditional masculinity is invulnerability. The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are. The more vulnerable you are, the more girly you are.

As a lot of people have figured out, it's our human vulnerabilities that connect us, that make us close to each other. So in heterosexual relationships anyway, women across the west, you know, empowered by feminism, empowered by changes in the workforce are insisting on more levels of emotional connection from us guys than most of us have been raised to deliver.

In fact, Just the opposite. Research tells us that little boys in the playground demonstrate less willingness to express emotion. Do you know what age it hits them? Three, four, five years old.

[00:05:10] Dylan Watkins: Wow.

[0:05:10] Terry Real: By the time a boy is three or four, he has already figured out the code of masculinity. Got to be strong, got to be tough. Don't express too much. Don't feel too much. Never be vulnerable. Never depend on anybody. You know, you're an island. Three, four, five these kids have learned that and it is a role that, you know, it makes great Clint Eastwood movies, but it doesn't make for very good husbands and fathers.

We have to shape up. Now, a lot of the response to – look, I I'm a medic in the gender wars. I mean, people fly in from all over the country. They see me for two days. These two-day intensives. At the end of that time, you're on track or getting a divorce on the last stop. That's my beat. That's my practice. And women drag in men. They say they want communication and this and that, but what they really want is more relational guys. They want guys who can connect from the heart, who can talk about their feelings, who can listen to a woman talk about her feelings and not get defensive and go through the roof.

These are the things that sort of our wives and our children and – if you're non-binary or if you're gay, our same sex partners are insisting on from us. We want real intimacy in our relationships. That's a historically brand new demand. The response has been very conservative.

If we could just get women to back off and go back to ‘50s, all would be well. I don't want women to back off. I think intimacy is a great thing. I want men to stand up and meet these new demands. There's a relationship technology that you can master. Both men and women need to master how to speak up and be loving at the same time.

Who does that? How to put yourself aside and listen with a generous heart, how to give your partner what they're asking for and deal with the disappointment when you don't get what you want. Nobody teaches our kids how to do these things. They couldn't be more basic but we need to learn how to master a few skills in order to have the new intimate relationships that both men and women want these days.

[00:07:47] Dylan Watkins: That's beautiful. You're talking about being the last stop of people's relationships before. It's either divorce or, you know, go nowhere kind of stuff. What, what do you say are the common patterns that you see when they're kind of in these loops, these cycles? Because generally men and women get in patterns where one triggers one that triggers the other one and they just kind of become two dogs barking at each other.

So what, what are some of the patterns that you see in common then and how have you seen them try to break those patterns to get out of those cycles?

[00:08:19] Terry Real: Well, look, let me give – if your listeners just get this one piece of advice I wanted to get – actually I have two things to say. The first is for men in particular and it is not just in our relationship to other people, but very much our relationship to ourselves.

One of the things that I've learned about coming out of the old code is this. Ready? There is no redeeming value in harshness. Let me get that straight. There is nothing that harshness does that loving firmness doesn't do better. Now a lot of the people listening to us have big inner critics and they're perfectionistic and they're driven and they're relentless and it's like, yeah, well, I'm holding my feet to the fire. I'm insisting on excellent – bullshit.

There are more humane ways of doing it, whether you're a manager with a direct report or whether the direct report is you to yourself. If you are speaking harshly to another person, if someone is speaking harshly to you, or if God forbid you are speaking harshly to yourself, I have big news.

You ready? Knock it off, knock it off. There's nothing that harshness does that loving firmness doesn't do better. And so when I get down to real – teaching real nuts and bolt skills, one skill I teach, which is primarily important for women right now is how to stand up for yourself with love, how to be assertive and cherishing your partner and the relationship at the same time in the same breath.

How to say no and I love you in the same breath. Now, people don't do that. Under patriarchy, you're either powerful or you're connected, but you're not both at the same time because under patriarchy power is power over, not power with. So when you move into power, you break connection. And so the standard setup is feminine, affection, affiliation, connection, masculine, independence, competence, power, and, you know, they're your – now when women decide to speak, a lot of times, they scoot from the traditional feminine side, which is accommodating to the masculine side, which is, I don’t really give a damn.

And when they do speak, they speak in ways nobody could possibly listen to. So I want people in general and women in particular to exercise what I call soft power. Darling, I love you. It's the difference between this. I'll be real simple. If I was going to say Dylan –role play Dylan, not the real Dylan. I'm not speaking disrespectfully to you. I don't like the way you're talking to me. Pipe down. That’s one way of saying it or a more skilled way of saying it. Hey Dylan, I want to hear what you have to say. I care about you. Could you dial it down so I could really listen to it? Now, they are two ways of saying the same damn thing. But which one do you think is going to be more effective?

[00:11:41] Dylan Watkins: Absolutely. What you're talking about is creating space for people, right? Space for them to be heard, space for them to feel heard and felt that they can really connect with each other. That's a really powerful thing because it seems to me it's either fight or flight. It's either give in or dominate, but that fine line, that pocket that you're talking about of being a little set in, and now there are two pieces of this coin I would love to dive into. One of the pieces is the awareness. The other one is the action. So because some people do make that confusion of like, oh, I'm doing this for your own good. This is because I love you, right? So what actions could they take to become aware?

Are they being harsh or are they being loving firm? Because that's a very – that's a series of grays that is very difficult to articulate, unless you're actually aware of it. So what questions could people ask themselves to identify what side that they're on?

[00:12:39] Terry Real: Here some rules. Here are some rules. First of all, stay on your side of the street. Therapists all over the world teach people to speak from the “I”, the pronoun “I”, not “you”. You did this, you did that. You're a jerk. You're this. Last week you did that. Two weeks – no, that's – no, we don't want that. Say I. When you said that I got upset, not even you made me upset.

That's victim talk. I got myself upset. You know, my kids talk like this. It's artificial but we taught them. Dad, when I called you yesterday and you didn't call me back for a, a whole day, I got myself feeling lonely and angry and abandoned by you. So when this happened, this is how I felt, period. End of story. Get your finger out of your partner's brain.

Two, don't try to control them. Don't tell them what they should or shouldn't do. Tell them what you would like. And three, keep it positive. I ask people to let go of complaint. You did that wrong and replace it with request. This is what right would look like and we all go to what's wrong. Sometimes I have people like literally write down the complaint and then flip the paper over and write down the positive request. But every complaint has a request in it. Lead with the request. Tell your partner what they could do right, not what they just did that was wrong.

So these are some rules on how to speak in ways that get you listened to. Cherish your partner. Appreciate. Hey Dylan. I'm, I'm really appreciative that you are willing to sit down and clear the air with me right now. Thank you. That's a good friend. I appreciate that. Start with that. Who the hell ever starts with that?

You know, I got to tell you. Can I tell you a story?

[00:14:36] Dylan Watkins: Yeah, please continue.

[00:14:37] Terry Real: All right. This is how I learned this stuff from my friend Alan. I was on his porch. The kids were running around. They were little and he had done something that pissed me off and I was really mad at him. So, you know, our families are there. He has got fresh blue fish in the smoker that we caught that morning. It has been a great day and I say to him, “Alan, I just can't be here and enjoy myself with all this shit that I'm carrying around from what you did, blah, blah, blah. I got to clear the air,” and then I launched into it. You did this and you did that and blah, blah, blah.

So he stands up and he's hurt and angry. I mean his body is vibrating. The moment is really intense between us. Okay, you ready? This is what he says to me. Oh my god. He opens up and he looks at me and he goes, “Terry, the first thing I got to tell you is that I love you.”

Holy shit. I love you. You're one of my best friends. I expect to be best friends until the day we die. What I'm about to say has nothing to do with that. Okay.? We're clear? Good. Now you walk onto my porch in the middle of my family as my guest, and you unleash a kind of self-righteous anger at me, which as you know, I grew up with in my family and I spent most of my life trying to get the hell away from. I don't appreciate you walking into the porch and dumping it on me.

Hey, I can't control you. And I don't want to. But every time you throw that kind of energy at me, particularly in front of my family, I'm going to tell you just how much I don't like it. And brother, I don't like it. Am I being clear?

That’s what he said. You know what I said?

[00:16:31] Dylan Watkins: Hmm.

[00:16:33] Terry Real: That's what I said. I said, “Uh,” because he had me with, “Terry, I love you.” See, I'm a blue collar kid from New Jersey. He wanted to fight with me. I was ready to go. No prob – could have done it in my sleep, but Terry, I love you. This has nothing to do with that. Now I don't want to control you, but let me tell you how I feel when you act like that.

Holy crap. It totally disarmed me and that's where I first started thinking about this idea of loving power. You can be powerful and you can cherish the person you're speaking to both at the same time. IT takes some practice but it's one of the things I teach people.

[00:17:24] Dylan Watkins: That's so powerful, leading with that love first and then I mean there's like a ninja tactic inside there of jujitsu of communication that even though he felt the rage and everyone wants to lean in with the rage first, because everybody – I did notice that the typical patterns is let me scream at you until I feel heard and then I'll make space versus flipping that around and going, “I'm going to lead with love first,” and then talk about that from a position of how your actions, what your actions did and then how I felt. And then when that, that not wanting to control someone, but feel heard. That's really powerful.

[00:18:05] Terry Real: Yeah. Well it taught me a lot and it changed the way I teach people. And now I want to talk Dylan about how to respond to that because now this is more for guys, but they're both for both, but you know. Look, first of all, I have a bitter pill to swallow that I ask all my people to swallow. Here it is. Objective reality has no place in personal relationships. Let me say it again.

Objective reality is a loser when it comes to personal relationships. Look the relational answer to the question, “Who's right and who's wrong?” is “Who cares?” No one cares. The real question is, “How are you and I going to get through this thing in a way that’s going to work?” We live together. We love each other. Like, what are we going to do?

I just finished a new book. It's coming out in March. I already made a plug to come back on your show back up in March to talk about it. But the name of the book is called “Us”. That's the title of the book, getting past you and me to build a more loving relationship. And when people get triggered and we can talk about trauma and how trauma impacts relationships.

When people get triggered, they lose the us. They lose the sense of the relationship and it's you versus me, win-lose, zero sum. And when you're in that world, you're in trouble. And one of the first things I teach people is how to shift out of that fight-flight, you-me, one win, one lose into the more adult wise. It's actually a different part of the brain, prefrontal cortex.

The adult wise you that understands that we're connected together. Look, when you start thinking ecologically, relationally, that's what the whole new book  is about and thinking ecologically in your relationships. Your relationship whether it's work or home or friendship or whatever, your relationship is, your biosphere.

Okay? You're not above it. That's patriarchy. You don't control it and dominate it. That's patriarchy. You are in it. You breathe. It's your atmosphere. Your relationship is your bias. Now you can choose to pollute your biosphere with a puff of anger over here, but brother, you're going to be breathing in that, the pollution in your partner’s withdrawal and lack of generosity or sexuality over here.

You and your partner are connected. You're not out of it. You have to have the humility of understanding your – you know, I say over and over again to people, “Happy house, happy spouse.” A guy says to me, “Why should I bend over backwards to make her happy?” and the answer is because you live with her. Okay? Like wake up and smell the coffee. You're not above your marriage. You're in your marriage and that's true for every relationship that we're in. So once you understand that, once you understand that the question to, “Who's right and who's wrong?” is “Who cares?”

Then you can listen. The first order of making repair with your partner when your partner is upset or somebody in business or whatever is you have to bring them back into repair with you. Now, everybody gets this wrong, Dylan. Everybody thinks it's a conversation. It's a two way street. Well, you tell me what your issues are with me and I'm going to tell you what my issues are with you.

You tell me what your issues are with me, and I'm going to tell you why I have the – no, it's a one-way street. When your partner is in a state of disrepair, I like to say, I want you to feature yourself as being at the customer service window. Somebody comes to you at the customer service window and says, “My microwave doesn't work,” right?

They don't want to hear from you, “Well, my toaster doesn't work.” Do they? No. They want you to fix their damn microwave. So pay attention to the ouch that you're trying to fix and be of service to helping them feel better. It's a one-way street.

[00:22:44] Dylan Watkins: That's a powerful statement to look at that and to realize that in that moment, it's like we're not always going to need at the same level at the same time. So understanding that the partner – you say, “Okay. Am I in a situation where my partner needs me? Okay, well then I'm going to be of service to my partner in that time, to be there, to repair, to be that,” because you both can't sit there and repair each other the same time. You both can't scream at each other and be heard at the same time.

You have to be – I love the idea. Okay. She for me would be she is at the – she's in a state of disrepair and she needs me to be at the customer service window where then I go, “Good evening, miss. How can I help you today? I'm here to be of service to you. What do you need in order to feel better? Coming right up.”

[00:23:26] Terry Real: Whoa. That is the $10,000 question, my friend. Is there anything I can say or do right now that would help you feel better? That's the most direct invitation to repair. What could I do to be of service to you? Who the hell does that? But it's going to get you out of the hole.

[00:23:45] Dylan Watkins: I, I can speak to that just this Sunday. So me and my fiancée are getting married in about two-ish months and she's –

[0:23:50] Terry Real: Oh, congratulations.

[00:23:51] Dylan Watkins: Thank you. And she's stressing a little bit on the wedding and I'm just like, “What do you need? I'm here for you. What do you need? This is your thing. This is our thing, but this is your thing. What do you need? I'm here for you. We're going to figure this out,” and I'm just – because I want to make sure that everything lines up for her. So she's this – and this is one of the points where I'm here with her, but at the same time I'm of service to her so that she can, she can really feel free to enjoy the time because I know how pressure she feels in the situation. This is my one mindset where I can go into a situation where I'm like, okay, I'm here for you. I want to make this awesome for you because I want to make this awesome for us. So what can I do to make your life better?

[00:24:32] Terry Real: that's a very enlightening position.

[00:24:35] Dylan Watkins: I just want it to work. I just want it to work. I want her to be happy. I want it to go smoothly. That's my goal.

[00:24:40] Terry Real: Right. Okay. Now  let me ask you a question. It may seem silly, but why, why are you willing to do all this? What do you get out of it?

[00:24:49] Dylan Watkins: I think specifically for the wedding in my, in my mind, it, it comes down to, I think I want to make it extra special for her because I know how important it is. And so …

[00:24:59] Terry Real: All right. So stop there. So one of the reasons why you want to make it better for her is because you love her and you want her to not have a bad experience, but a good one. Good. What else?

[00:25:10] Dylan Watkins: I understand that she needs it. She's in a place where she's feeling energy where it feels overwhelming and I want to do whatever I can to take on that load and to make sure that she feels supported, make sure she feels safe, make sure she feels loved. Make sure she feels cared for because …

[00:25:28] Terry Real: I know but hey listen, what if you want white roses and she wants red? I mean, what are you going to do about that?

[00:25:35] Dylan Watkins: I’m going to give her the red roses. I will hear her out for this, for this situation specifically. To me, it's, it's more important that her needs get met in the situation.

I can communicate what I want, but at the end of the day and for me personally for the wedding is I want her to feel like she – that she gets what she – I want her to have the ideal wedding. I want her to feel loved and supported and valued and appreciated. That's kind of my intention going into this, which is a really – it hasn't caused any fights because I'm just like it might be something I don't want and I just go, “Okay, we can do that,” and I just kind of go, “Okay, we can do that.”

[00:26:15] Terry Real: Now two things, you enlightened being you. I want to move on to two things. One is you are yielding and I talk to men in particular about what it means to be a family and stepping up to be a family man requires a hell of a lot of yielding and traditional masculinity does not equip us to yield. We have to stand. We have to hold our ground all the time. Otherwise you're not a real man, but that stops us from being able to be giving –you're being giving and yielding to your partner.

It's more important to her than it is to you, what color the roses are. The thing that I ask people to ask themselves is this. What will it cost me? If you're trying to make peace with your partner, you ask yourself, “What will it cost me to give them what they're asking for?”

If the answer's big, I mean, you know, if she wants diamond tieras and you want paper plates, then maybe it's too big and you have to stand – it's time for a fight. But if the answer is this isn't really going to cost me much, then be generous and you are. You're being generous of heart when you yield on the flowers.

The third thing I want to point out is – and this is the wise part. It's in your interest. Why are you doing this for your fiancée? Because you want a great wedding, right?

[00:28:00] Dylan Watkins: A hundred percent. Yeah. Okay. I'm doing it. I'm doing it for you, but I'm also doing it for us and I've noticed that it has been very smooth because of that, which I don't – I can't say that I do this all the time, but for this one specifically for this venue, I'm like, “Okay, I want you to be happy. I want you to be proud. I want you to feel good. I want you to be stress-free. I want all these things for you specifically in this wedding. So I want to be of service.”

And I've noticed that the – a lot of the – where I can feel her energy rise. I come in to be like – and it is – when you said guest services, it really rung true in my mind. Decades ago I was in guest services, but that is where I'm at. I'm like, what do you need miss to have this be awesome? I've got you. Let's go.

[00:28:44] Terry Real: Well, I will tell the guys listening to us a good tip. Generally speaking, an angry woman is a woman who does not feel heard. And what happens when we're faced with an angry partner is we get defensive and they feel even less heard and they get even angrier. If you wanted this – you’re right when you said there's little ninja action here. I talk about relational jujitsu. If you want to disarm somebody with a lot of energy, yield and go with the energy. Don't oppose the energy. You're going to wind up in a fight. So you ask yourself. Okay. Can I give in here? What's it going to cost me? It's not going to cost much. Sure. How can I be of help to you? This is called being a generous partner.

It comes back to you. That's the last point I wanted to say about that. I don't speak to people about altruism. I don't even like the concept of altruism. I talk about enlightened self-interest. It's in your interest to keep this gal happy because you live with her and you're going to marry her. So like it's in your interest to do this well.

[00:30:05] Dylan Watkins: Yes, a hundred percent I feel that way. Let me ask you a question for this. So in this situation, because this one, it's a – for me, for this one situation, it's very easy because I'm already dialed into this. What about times when people are unaware that they're in this aggressive mindset, they're in this, they're in this combative “I win, you win,” zero sum kind of game? What are some ways to recognize that you're there and then be able to flip to this enlightened self-interest kind of path? Because I think part of it is that awareness that you're even doing it and then that humility or that lack of ego to be able to switch that. Like how does that work?

[00:30:51] Terry Real: Well, the first thing, remember what I said earlier about triggering and trauma. The first thing to understand is that when you're in that triggered heated moment and you're – it's like looking at your partner through the wrong end of a telescope. You forget that you love them, and that you're a team and you're working together and now it's fight or flight, me versus you. One of us wins, one of us loses and don't push me around.

When you're in that space, the tough news is you're literally in a different part of your brain. You're in a different part of your neurology. You have been triggered like trauma and you are in self-preservation. That part of you will not use a single of the skills that we've been talking about.

Yeah. I gave a workshop. Now my students are doing it but we have a workshop we give all over the country called the boot camp and, you know, it has slides. It has PowerPoint. My favorite slide is this one. Other workshops teach you skills. We deal with the part of you that won't use it.

[00:32:10] Dylan Watkins: That's so good.

[00:32:12] Terry Real: And the first skill is just with your name, starting to recognize when you're triggered, when you're not in us consciousness, when you're in me and you adversarial consciousness. Get the feel. I teach people to get the – like your armpits are sweating. Your back is up. Your throat is tight, whatever your particular – I asked them to dial into their bodies and start to recognize when they're triggered, when they're heated. I'm a big fan of taking a break. Count to 10 if you're standing there. If that's too much for you, literally arrange with your partner so they know in advance what you're doing. A timeout, 20 minutes, I’ll be back.

You always got to say, “I'm coming back,” and you got to come back when you say you're coming back. Twenty, 30 minutes, I'm going to collect myself. I'm coming back and then you take that 20. You splash some water on your face. You do some breathing, do some meditating. Talk to one of your inner children. Do whatever you need to do to get yourself back in that place where you got your eye on the prize. You remember what you're about. I call it remembering love. You remember that the person you're speaking to is somebody you care about and the reason why you're speaking is to make things better. You know, somebody once said, “Wait, why am I talking?” and be honest with yourself in the moment.

In my last book, The New Rules of Marriage, and you can also get it on Fierce Intimacy, this audio book that you can get. I talk about five losing strategies and we don't have to beat them into the ground, but let me just name them. Being right. We're going to solve this problem when we determine which of the two of us is right.

Controlling your partner. Things will get better when you do do. Unbridled self-expression, ventilating. You did this last week. You did it last year. You did it. You son of a bitch, you’re  always, you're never, retaliation. I'm going to hurt you the way you hurt me. So, you know, a little puff of hostility and withdrawal. I'm going to shut down that you just leave me alone. I'm not listening.

Being right. Controlling your partner, ventilating, retaliating, or withdrawing. None of these is going to get you more of what you want. None of them ever. So if you're interested, start to learn what your particular profile is. When I get triggered in the heat of the moment, I tend to do this or some combination. Dylan, if you're willing, let's do it right now.

When you get triggered. Okay. Which one of us is right? I will be happy if you only do this differently. Let me tell you all the things that you do wrong, always and never. Let me hurt you a little the way you hurt me or let me shut down and withdraw and you can't get to me. Which combination do you go to?

[00:35:26] Dylan Watkins: I think it would be being right. Like I'm right. You are wrong. That kind of thing and then probably the – focusing on the negative and saying that you always do this negative and just focusing on that. That would probably be my combination. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm good. You're bad.

[00:35:45] Terry Real: This is …

[00:35:47] Dylan Watkins: And let me tell you all about it.

[00:35:47] Terry Real: Let me tell you all the negative things that you want versus the, like, focusing on the positive that you started – like you were talking about earlier.

[00:35:55] Terry Real: Yeah. It would be the way I would do it, you know, instead of you …

[00:35:59] Dylan Watkins: I'm so great. Give me …

[00:36:03] Terry Real: So can I tell you the big problem with trying to solve your problem by figuring out which one of you is right?

[00:36:08] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. Please.

[00:36:09] Terry Real: Yeah. I don't know about you. But when I do that in my marriage, my wife has this terrible habit of thinking that she's actually the one that's right. I don't know if you've ever found that, but yeah ...

[00:36:21] Dylan Watkins: experienced that. Yeah. I don't know what she's talking about, but yes.

[00:36:27] Terry Real: Yeah. Figuring – and people get into this for hours. So, you know, arguing over the evidence and making your case, like you're in front of the judge. Forget it. It's a total waste of time. The answer isn't who's right and who's wrong. The answer is, “Okay. How are we going to make this work in a way that's going to work for both of us? Let's remember we're a team,” and then the other one, unbridled self-expression. Let me tell you just how miserable I am because of what you've done. How well does that usually work for you?

[00:37:02] Dylan Watkins: Not normally. Yeah. Normally it's a shutdown. Yeah. The other person shuts down and it's just over the top and you – I feel better from doing it and like, oh, well I feel better that I've dumped all my toxicity on top of you.

Then what's wrong with you? Why are you disconnected? I don't understand. I don’t get why you're not – why don't you feel as good as I do now?

[00:37:23] Terry Real: Yeah. You know, no offense, but I call this the barf bag approach to intimacy. It's like, here you hold it. No. Okay. Now you got it. I feel so much what you could seem to have a problem over there. I feel so much better.

Yeah, no, no, no. So one of the ways in which you can determine are you in your centered adult self looking to make things better or are you in an immature part of you that wants to either prove you’re right, control your partner, ventilate until the cows come home, get even, or get left alone. And the first order of business is understanding just like you did with me now, what your go-to is going to be, and then recognizing it when you do it. Then take a breath or 10 and remember love. Oh yeah. If you can't remember that you love the person, remember that you live with them and you're going to have to deal with them.

So it's in my interest to help you feel better and then I'm at your service. What do you need to feel better? You put yourself at their service for your sake. Let me be very concrete. Belinda and I are both fighters. My wife Belinda and I both fight. We both grew up in raging, violent families.

This is no joke and back in the day 30 years ago, we could fight for six or seven days in a row. I mean, yelling, screaming, you know, go to sleep at 3:00 in the morning, get up at 7:00. Tell other people how to live their lives all day. Come home at 5:00 and start fighting again. That's what we did. Nowadays on a good day, not every day, but a good day, and mostly they're good. We'll start to get at it and one of the others will call a break, just 20, 30 minutes. Thankfully we take turns. One of the other of us will kind of come downstairs and say something like this. Uh, Hey Belinda, I don't really want to fight. Do you want to fight? I mean, I don't really want to fight. Can we get out – what do you need? Well, Terry, you could say, you're sorry about blah, blah, blah and of course my kneejerk is to get defensive and argue with her, but I take a breath. Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry about blah, blah, blah.

All right, well, what do you need? Well, Belinda, you could be accountable about blah, blah, blah. Well, yeah, I could have done that a little better. Okay. We're good. I'm good. You good? I'm good. Great. Let's make some tea and that's what a fight sounds like these days. And what I want to tell you is what is guiding me in the – why I go downstairs and go, “I don't really want to find anyone,” what I'm thinking about, honest to God, is this. How do I want to spend my evening? That's what I'm thinking about. Do I want to spend my evening screaming and yelling at this person or do I want to spend my evening getting the cold shoulder or would I rather, you know, like snuggle in the couch and watch some cool TV show or how do I want to spend my life? How do I spend my time? And that is being in your wife's adult self.

[00:40:59] Dylan Watkins: That is so powerful and that is such an amazing like concept and pattern. I'm sure there's an amazing amount of depth that you can dive into that where you look at and you realize, “Okay. We're in it. We're in our fighting mode and yeah, we go at it.” I feel the same way that me and my lady, we can. We have a ton of endurance to be able to continue with the fights. But that ability to take a break away, have a breath, and then go, “Can we not fight? What do you need in order for us to not fight?” Like that right there, to be able to like – I almost picture it like mentally, what I'm picturing is almost like there's a doorway to escape.

There's a doorway to escape this thing. But the problem is, is the door swings inwards, and I'm standing at the door trying to open it. It won't get out. So I've got to take a step back and then open up that door to come through so that I can walk through. Otherwise, I'm going to be, “Why won't this door open?” But there's no space for me to actually open up this door to go outwards.

[00:42:01] Terry Real: That’s really beautifully said. That absolutely is beautiful. That space to stand back and see the damn door to begin with, you know, to see the forest and not be smack up against the tree. That space is literally shifting into a different part of who you are, a different part of your brain. Are you in an immature triggered space? When I come back, I'll talk more about triggering and how that works.

As a therapist, the most important question I ask when I'm talking to somebody is not “What are the stressors here?” because a good couple can handle stress and it's not, “What's the dance?” what's the core – you know, the more she pursues, the more he distances, the more he distances. That's important.

But the, the most important question I ask myself is this. Which part of you am I speaking to? Am I speaking to an immature child part that wants to be right, control all those losing strategies, or am I speaking to an adult who wants to make things better? You know, the first step in the repair process is remembering that you want to make repair to begin with.

Let me say that again. The first step in making repair when things go off the wheel is getting into a place where you're willing to make the repair to begin with rather than screw your partner into the ground or – when you're in that place, the skills will follow. If you're not in that place, all bets are off.

[00:43:41] Dylan Watkins: That is incredibly powerful because you recognize that the only way to get, the only way to apply the strategy, the only other things is to first get to that mindset. But then if you, if you won't even – and that create that question. I always say every quest starts with a question and that first question is, “Who am I speaking to? Where am I at?” and then understanding, “Okay. What do we need to do to get in that mindset and then shift that?” because if you can get both people in that mindset at the same time, that's incredibly powerful. One of the things is that my fiancée says is we both can't be crazy at the same time.

[00:44:15] Terry Real: It’s one of my lines. In relationships, everybody gets to go crazy, but you have to take turns.

[00:44:20] Dylan Watkins: Yes, yes, yes. That's exactly it and that’s a – she could have gotten that from you. I just got it from her and, and that was the thing is if we can recognize and we help guide the other people, then it's, it's such a powerful thing. That's an amazing question to ask. I’m going to repeat that question. Who am I speaking to right now?

[00:44:41] Terry Real: And which part of me is speaking?

[00:44:43] Dylan Watkins: Which part of me is speaking? Who am I speaking to and which part of me speaking. Right there, man. Could you imagine all the suffering in the world that could get avoided if you were actually able to ask that question consistently? That is so powerful.

[00:44:56] Terry Real: Now let me tell you how the program works because one of the skills that we teach people is what to do when you are in your adult self and your partner is an immature part of them and acting like a jerk. I don't know if you ever encountered that, but most people have here and there. When you are doing well and you're in your adult and you're using these skills and your partner is in a childish part of them and they want nothing – all that is you and never, and blame and blah, blah, blah.

You try a couple, three times to get them back in their adult and that sounds like this. Here's a $10,000 question. If you're watching or listening and you only get this, get this. Honey, I'm sorry you feel bad. I don't want you to feel bad. Here's the question. Is there anything I can say or do right now that would help you feel better?

When in doubt, is there anything I could say or do that would help you feel better? And that's right now. A lot of people go, “Well, you could have, and you should have and next time …” I can't do anything about the past and the future. Right now, what could I say or do to help you feel better? I'm at your service.

So I talk about what I call “relational mindfulness”. You know, everybody says relationships are work, but nobody says what the work is. The work is in the moment, in this moment right now, am I going to go with the triggered part of me? Goddamn thing. Am I going to go with retaliation or withdrawal or am I going to take a breath, take a walk, have a chat with myself, come back into the ring when I'm like centered and say, “Okay, what do we need in …?” You know, it's like the difference between saying to somebody, “I need sex. Goddamn it, I'm not getting enough sex in this relationship,” or saying, “Honey, we both deserve a good sex life. You know, we're kind of falling off the track here. Well, what do you think we need to do to get this back for both of us?”

Two ways of saying the same thing, but one is about, I, I, I, anger, anger, anger, complaint, complaint, complaint, and the other one's about us. And it's forward-looking and it's gentle and it's loving. You can be firm and you can be loving at the same time, but you have to practice it because it's rare in this culture.

[00:47:33] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. That a fine line balance to recognize it, to feel that need. So that desire to retaliate, right, wrong, push in, but then to actually go, “Okay, that's not going to get me to my goal. My goal is X and this will never get me that way,” even though our weird monkey instincts is to do that, right? To take this other path is such a powerful lesson and that relational mind, relational mindfulness, I've never heard that term before. And I think it's a beautiful term. I think it’s great.

It's a very powerful thing is you are literally co-creating your reality together and then being mindfulness. You’re being aware of where you're both at at the same time. I think it’s incredibly powerful. All this stuff that you've been putting together, the 30 years of being in therapy, the four books, the other book that has been coming out, all of this stuff right now. What is your, what I would call the Holy Grail? What is your endgame? What is your ultimate desire from all of this work and effort that you've put into creating this type of educational materials and workshops. What is your personal Holy Grail for the work that you've been doing?

[00:48:43] Terry Real: You mean, what do I want my life to look like or what do I want my message to be or both?

[00:48:48] Dylan Watkins: Well, let's go with both. Actually those are two great caveats, but I would love to address both of those.

[00:48:55] Terry Real: I was sitting with my pal, Esther Perel. I don't know if you know her, but she's well-known in the sort of therapy sex world. We were talking about our brands and I told her what her brand was. Her brand was eroticism in the broadest sense of the word. Life force, energy, creativity, innovation in sex and she said, “What's your brand?” and I said, “My brand is the warm healing power of connected relationships, the warm healing power of connection.” We are so disconnected in this world. We disconnect from ourselves, from what we're feeling. We disconnect from putting out what we really want.

We certainly disconnect from vulnerability and we disconnect from each other. What I know, research is really clear. We human beings are designed for intimate connection. That's what we're designed for. That's how we operate best physically, emotionally, spiritually in every way.

For example – I mean, I could give you hundreds of examples. There’s research – a person recovers from surgery and leaves the hospital. Okay. Mm-hmm sooner or later in ways that are absolutely in line with how many visitors they get. The more visitors they get, the quicker they heal and they're out of the hospital.

There are like millions of research like this. Intimacy is what – little babies in the first weeks of life seek intimacy. Intimacy is what makes us happy. It's what we're born – if you are self-medicating, somebody listening to me right now, if you are abusing drugs or alcohol or a process like sex to make yourself feel better, I'm telling you what you're making feel better is the pain and loneliness of not being with, by being alone. We are not designed to be alone.

We co-regulate each other's nervous systems. We are absolutely social beings and I want to teach people the technology of collaboration, of being with, of mutual empowerment and get us out of the individualistic, patriarchal nightmare of better than, less than, superior, inferior, dominator, dominated.

That's the world we all live in. It's a sucky world. I want us to be in a world of mutuality, interdependency, and interconnection with ourselves, our own hearts, with our partners, with our work, with our state, with politics and with the world, the planet and spirit. We are born to be connected with, not above or below. That's a lie.

[00:52:06] Dylan Watkins: Wow. That is so powerful. I think one of the questions that I've always sought out to try to have answered and I think you've done a damn good job of it on this podcast is how do I speak my voice at the same time not hurt the other and offend them because you know, that's like the – the definition of a difficult conversation is I have something inside me that I don't think is going to land well and especially if you have power over me or my situation. Then you have this life of quiet desperation where people often go to the graves with the song unsung inside of them.

So how do you balance out that I have something within inside me that I think may not land well, but I also care about you to be able to speak the voice, but do it from a place of this loving space to have that connection.

I think – I mean the crutch of what a lot of this conversation has been is really of revolving around that conversation, which I think is …

[00:52:56] Terry Real: How to be, how to be loving and powerful at the same time.

[00:53:00] Dylan Watkins: How to be loving and powerful at the same time. That is so powerful.

[00:53:05] Terry Real: Yes. So here's a tip. First of all, get centered in the part of you that can be loving and powerful at the same time. Don't get knocked off your game by being all, you know, heated and automatic.

This is for grownups. You have to really think you're – get centered before you enter into the fray. Once you’re centered, I guarantee your result, but I can do the best, optimize your best chances. Start with your intention.

I want everybody to listen to that again. Name your intention. I want to clear the air with you, Dylan, so that we can be closer to each other. I want to speak my mind with you so that I can hear what was going on with you and understand better. Your best intention will bring the other person in. You know, even something like racism. I write about racism in the new book. I tell my students, “You don't call somebody out. Call them in. Call them in to the community of thoughtful, sensitive people. It is all about is this me versus you or is this the two of us as a team trying to work something out. That is the pivot.

If you really have in your heart – you know, you let all the feelings of indignation and desperate – all that crap wash over you. You’re centered into, “I care about this person. I want this to work.” Then say that. Who started off confronting you ever by saying, “Hey Dylan, the first thing I want you to understand is I care about you and the reason why I’m talking to you right now is so that we can be closer and work things out. That’s what I have in mind.”

[00:55:10] Dylan Watkins: That's so powerful and it's something to – as an actual practice to get into, to recognize, “Okay. Okay. I’m going to start with love, lead with love, then lead with the intention,” and then just in that place of just be with the person in the situation to be able to – how do we figure this out together in a collaborative space or a caring –

[00:55:30] Terry Real: Collaboration versus power. The other thing that you can do when you're sort of calling somebody out on something is appreciate them. This is my intention. I want to be closer to you. This is why I'm doing it. Let's talk about this together. We're a team and I really appreciate this podcast.

I really appreciate the work you do, Dylan. I really appreciate that you're willing to sit down and talk to me like this right now. Find something to appreciate in the person and give them a little positive TLC along with the medicine. So, get yourself centered. Remember what your intention is and speak your best intention to the other person, and then appreciate something about them.

Even if the sheer act of sitting there and listening to you right now. Do those three things and that you increase the odds of being listened to exponentially compared to the way we normally do it.

[00:56:31] Dylan Watkins: That is so powerful with those things being said. I want to talk about this one more question here is – so if the goal for you is to mean to really kind of create this more loving, co-regulating each other's nervous system collaboration, be there for each other, being both loving and powerful at the same time, speaking your voice, having them feel heard, and that is the Holy Grail for you and the message. What is the dragon? What is the biggest obstacle that we face or that you face in order to get to that goal or that destination?

[00:57:12] Terry Real: Grandiosity is the biggest dragon, superiority. The belief. In the new book, I call it “the great lie” that our whole culture runs on, the belief that another human being can be essentially superior or inferior to another.

You know, think about slavery. Think about war. The first thing we do with an enemy is we leech the humanity out of them. They're less than human to us. That's the only way we can get it together to kill somebody. You can't look at somebody in the eye and really see them as a human like you and kill them at the same time.

So empathy goes, superiority comes in. Dominance comes in. Underneath all of that is usually shame, insecurity. You know, the insecure bully, but we don't care about that. If your fist is landing on my face, first thing I want to do is deal with your fist. So what takes us out of being with are – is the myth of power and control, above and below, dominator or dominated, superior, inferior.

All of that is nonsense. You know, our democracy is founded on the wisdom of we are all created equal, but we don't live like that. So I talk about what I call full respect living, and you know what, lives can change after this podcast. Literally, if everybody listening would make this one commitment, including you, my friend, you ready?

As of this moment, I will do my very best to not engage in disrespectful words or actions. Before I open my mouth, I ask myself, “Does this fall below the level of basic respect?” and if the answer is, yes, it does, shut up. But come hell or high water and similarly, if somebody is dishing out disrespect to me, don't just sit there and take it. Push back lovingly but firmly. Push back or break the transaction.

But in either direction, I got to tell you something. I'm an old guy. Now I've been around the block for a long time. At my age, I have a deal with the universe, Dylan. Here's my deal. If it's not kind, I'm not interested. If it's not kind, I'm not interested. And very much that includes me talking to me.

I'll have some harsh point. Yeah. You could have done better with that podcast. You talk too much. You should have let Dylan talk more. Yeah, fine. Maybe I should have, but that's not a bad point. But you know what? You're being nasty to me the way you say that. Be nice to me and I'll listen to you. If we make a deal that we do not dish out nastiness and we do not tolerate nastiness, many of the lives of the people listening to this podcast will change as of today. I call it full respect living. I'm not disrespectful to you. I'm not interested in being disrespectfully treated. I want disrespect out of my life.

[01:00:42] Dylan Watkins: That is incredibly powerful and you're right. Being able to come from that place or recognize it, live by it, integrate it and then – and not tolerate it in yourself to yourself, not tolerate in other people to the point of saying – it's not toleration with we responding with violence, but it's saying I'm going to break the transaction. I'm going to disengage. I'm going to push back. I'm going to state where I'm coming from. Being able to come from that place powerfully, either – whether it comes from within or going without. That could change the world.

[01:01:13] Terry Real: I think it can. I think it can.

[01:01:16] Dylan Watkins: That’s so beautiful. So, with that being said, and with that mic drop of a comment that you just put in there, Terry, is there anything else you'd like to let people know about before you tell them how to get a hold of you?

I know you have a course that we put inside the show notes that anybody that's listening to this can go click on the info and there's – at the very bottom, there is a course that you have available that we've dropped in the notes. But is there anything else you would like to let people know about before you can tell them how to get a hold of you.

[01:01:45] Terry Real: I have. Yes, I have an online course called “Staying in Love”. It's for both individuals and couples. It's basic relationship skills. Some of the stuff we've been talking about. Go to my website, TerryReal.com. Just by name T-E-R-R-Y-R-E-A-L. There's an inventory you can take to take the pulse of your relationship and just see how messed up you are or not.

There are lots resources on the website and keep an eye out for the spring. I've got a new book coming out, which I think could speak to a lot of people. I'm honored to say that the foreword was written by somebody that I've worked with, who's proud to talk about it. A guy by the name of Bruce Springsteen has written the foreword of my book.

[01:02:39] Dylan Watkins: Powerful! That is incredible.

[01:02:42] Terry Real: Yeah. So keep an eye out for the spring and the name of the book is called “Us” and I'll hopefully be back to tell you more about it.

[01:02:50] Dylan Watkins: That would be beautiful. Well, thank you for that. Glad to hear it. Looking forward to March when that book releases. In the meantime, you can go to the TerryReal.com website. Look at some of those resources and/or get the course and the workshop that he has available online. With that being said, Terry, it's an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for being on the show. We very much appreciate it and I will see you on the other side.

[01:03:11] Terry Real: Oh, that is terrific. Thank you for having me. It has been great fun to talk to you.

[01:03:15] Dylan Watkins: Absolutely, Terry. Have a beautiful and blessed day. I'll see you soon. Bye now.

[01:03:19] Terry Real: Thank you.

[01:03:19] Outro: Thank you for listening to the Heroes of Reality Podcast. Check out HeroesofReality.com for more episodes. While you're there you can also take the Hero's Quiz to find out what kind of hero you are, or if you have a great story and want to be on the podcast, tell us why your hero's journey will inspire others. Thank you for listening. See you on the other side.